Seiko 6R35 And Soprod: Workhorse Movements In Flux

What is the industry standard today, and where is it going?

June 04, 2022

comments 48

“Workhorse movements”. Whether you love that one or hate this one, as a genre, they power the vast majority of watches made. Sure, we’re familiar with the old standards like the ETA 2824-2 and copycat Sellita SW200-1, but the landscape is changing. Established but previously lesser-known movement manufacturers like Soprod are coming onto the scene. Seiko is actively shifting the price of its 6RXX movement family into Swiss workhorse territory. And new proprietary calibers are redefining the specs we’ve come to expect from “standard” movements. All this begs the question: what is the future of workhorse movements?

To answer that, we might start with trying to define what a workhorse movement actually is. The definition changes from person to person, with many a heated debate stemming merely from semantics. Can only off-the-shelf movements be workhorses? Can companies make their own proprietary workhorse movements? How expensive is too expensive? I’m not attempting to write a treatise on watch lexicon here (there are enough of those articles already). But to get a lay of the land, we’ll need to look at many different calibers, some of which you might not consider eligible. More so, as the watch industry changes and grows, definitions for “independent”, “in-house” and “expensive” are also shifting. These blurred lines play a large part in the world of workhorses. But let’s start gently enough with a caliber we can all agree has some real horsepower.

ETA 2824-2/Sellita SW200-1 — Mainstays of the industry

Even if you don’t own one, you certainly know what it is. The ETA 2824-2, available for a long while from the Swatch Group, has long been regarded as the workhorse caliber to judge all others. It’s an off-the-shelf standard for third-party watch companies. It often shows up, heavily modified, as brand-specific variants. Sellita’s SW200-1 is essentially the same movement, but a necessary presence as Swatch continues to pare back the availability of the 2824-2 to outsiders. Sellita has no such qualms about providing its movement to the masses.

The specs are solid if a little antiquated in today’s environment. It’s Swiss-made with 38 hours of power reserve and a 4Hz (28,800vph) beat rate. Of course, it has automatic winding and a date wheel (as do almost all of the movements in this article). Depending on the grade, accuracy clocks in at anywhere from +/-12 seconds per day up to chronometer certification at +6/-4 seconds per day on average. Shock absorption and generally robust build quality have made the 2824-2/SW200-1 the darling choice for all manner of GADA (Go Anywhere, Do Anything) and tool watches.

The 2824-2/SW200-1’s established legacy as a workhorse movement and “standard specs” make it the ideal measuring stick to compare all other workhorses against. People often zealously point to it in arguments (heated debates) when someone attempts to claim another movement is a valid, reliable workhorse movement. Which I’m about to do now.

Seiko 6R

Seiko’s 6R movements (ending in a 2-digit numeric code, like “6R35”) are not the most numerous of Seiko’s automatic movements in the watch landscape. That award goes to the 4R caliber family, in what’s offered both by Seiko within its own watches and off-the-shelf by SII (Seiko Instruments). The 4R movements are good movements for the money and populate a huge market segment. They’re dependable and affordable (and usually come in affordable watches). They also allow for automatic mechanical watches at a price point below that of watches equipped with a 6R or Sellita. But because of that, we’ll leave the 4R’s out of the workhorse conversation and allow that debate to rage another time. For comparison purposes, we’re interested in movements with slightly higher build quality.

6R15 & 6R35

The 6R movements were long regarded by many as a robust, budget alternative to the ETA 2824-2/Sellita SW200-1. The 6R was to the Swiss standard as 4R is to 6R. Until recently, a 6RXX could be found in some seriously tough watches for well under $1000, and often, under $500. That value-to-spec ratio made up much of what put Seiko on the enthusiast map. But in the past couple of years, that has become less of the case. The newest 6R standard, the 6R35, found its way into new watches that strategically cost significantly more than comparable earlier models equipped with the previous 6R15.

The now-defunct 6R15 fairly closely follows the specs of the Swiss standards. It runs a reduced beat rate of 3Hz (21,600vph) but that’s compensated with an increased 50-hour power reserve. Shock absorption is present. Seiko states an accuracy for the 6R15 of +25/-15 seconds per day, but users’ mileage varies wildly, with most claiming pleasingly tighter tolerances. The 6R35, the replacement for the 6R15, sees an increase in power reserve at 70 hours.

Is it more than or less than?

The 6R35’s power reserve is almost double that of an unmodified ETA 2824-2. Via specs that are important to the user, the 6R35 shines. That is to say, on paper, the 6R35 out-“ticks” the ETA/Sellita standard. That may make it a clear winner for some. But there’s a conversation to be had on comparisons of build quality. As a caveat, I’m not a watchmaker, so my interest is more in lived experience. Others more knowledgeable than I have done better technical comparisons.

I think it’s safe to say that there is an empirical difference in quality. Part of the evidence comes from pricing. Seiko did the work to produce a robust yet affordable workhorse movement. Its engineers shaved every bit of fat they could from within the movement to the methods of manufacturing and assembly to come to the 6R and its previous unbelievable value. ETA never strove for the 2824 to be the most efficient mechanical machine it could possibly produce. ETA, of course, wants to make money. But the company simply make something that is good. Quite good. Good enough that we consider it a standard. You can call it comparing apples to oranges, with both companies and movements striving towards goals. But the difference felt in handling, adjusting, and seeing a Seiko 6R versus an ETA 2824-2 is stark. In my lived experience, the Swiss win.

It seems that Seiko is betting that specs like (or especially) the power reserve make the 6R35 and the watches it comes in as good as the comparably Swiss-equipped. This is evident in the brand’s aggressive move up-market in pricing as it releases new watches powered by 6R variants that inhabit the same price bracket as Swiss workhorse movements, the $1,000-2,000 range. My question is, what about the 8L?

8L35 caliber, used in the Marinemaster collection.

Why not 8?

In my mind (and I may be wrong… I’m often wrong) the 8L35 caliber that Seiko makes is more comparable to a higher-grade ETA 2824-2 than any 6R. It finds its way into watches that cost similarly to those equipped with higher-grade 2824/SW200s. It’s hand-assembled, beats at 4Hz, and has a power reserve of 50 hours. I haven’t had the chance to handle one, but I hear the finesse of the craft is tangible. It also exists almost exclusively in Seiko’s high-end dive watches. As pricing has increased in Seiko’s lower-level offerings, so too have Seiko’s Marinemasters and the like, which are now in the $2,500-4,000 range.

In a perfect world, I would prefer that Seiko lean into its 8L calibers a little more as a premium workhorse offering than inflate the 6R. However, Seiko keeps the 8L for itself and limits it even within the brand’s own catalog. The 6R is available to third-party watchmakers and still remains less expensive than ETA/Sellita, for now.

Industry titans

Brand-exclusive workhorse movements are everywhere. Seiko’s 8L35 is an unadjusted version of Grand Seiko’s 9S55. Grand Seiko replaced the 9S55 with the 9S65 for its own watches. Grand Seiko’s standard automatic sports watches, like the SPGR317, use the 9S65. These range in price from $4,000-5,000. It is a premium movement if still “standard” in that it has no added complications or complex technology. Specs include a 4Hz beat rate (28,800vph) and a stated accuracy of +5/-3 second per day, touching ETA’s highest chronometer status. We get the best of both worlds, hearkening back to the 6R35, with a 70-hour power reserve. It’s a solid movement, but one you’ll only get from Grand Seiko.

Omega and Rolex

Just about all of the big flagship luxury watch houses have in-house/proprietary equivalents of their own workhorse movements. For $5,500, one can get an Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra 150M powered by Omega’s 8900 caliber. The 8900 employs the Co-Axial escapement, an excellent design inherited from George Daniels. Lots of other technological developments make for a certified chronometer with 60 hours of power reserve and magnetic resistance to 15,000 gauss. Rolex’s offering is the 3235, another chronometer with 70 hours of power reserve and resistance to magnetism (though not 15,000 gauss). Both are excellent movements found in excellent watches. But in the case of Rolex, how easy is it to “find” one of the brand’s watches nowadays?

Let’s shoot straight about pricing and the intended market as well. “Workhorse movement” is a term that (for me) implies a certain robustness and reliability about the watches these movements are found in. Rolex used to be a tool-watch company (though the brand does make other watches too). Don’t get me wrong, its watches are every bit as robust as they ever were, more so in fact. However, the insane market surrounding Rolex disqualifies its watches as reasonable candidates for the use and abuse that rough, regular, work/play wearing beats into a watch. Omega is hardly better. A price of $5,000 is too much for a watch meant to be treated tough, unless you’re sponsored or in the movies.

Is it just me, or…

But we are flirting dangerously with subjective experience and the arguments that arise from different perspectives. My needs for a watch to accompany me daily through whatever I’m putting myself through are different than yours. Perhaps my definition of “workhorse movement” is outdated, and an exclusive luxury watch fetching top dollar is an adequate “workhorse” for many with lifestyles different than my own. However, I contend that watches that approach $10,000 are unrealistic “daily beaters” for a large portion of watch enthusiasts, no matter the excellence of the workhorse movement within.

Tudor and Oris

This need for not-so-luxury dependability is met in part by other brands existing in the lower levels of pricing and availability. The Tudor Pelagos employs the in-house/Kenissi caliber MT5612. This is another COSC-certified chronometer movement with 70-hours of power reserve. The Pelagos sits just shy of my $5,000 threshold at $4,725 MSRP. Oris’s Calibre 400 watches have an incredible five-day power reserve, chronometer accuracy, and anti-magnetism. They come in around $3,500, which is not much (or any) higher than many ETA/Sellita-equipped watches.

There are brand-specific examples everywhere. A few remain independent, like Nomos and Oris. But we’re seeing much of the development in workhorse standards come from organizations with enough resources to privately fund their own research and development. This is fine for consumers that are content with shopping brands or conglomerates for movement technology. Healthy competition has always been the driver of innovation. But these exclusive movements can only do so much for furthering the conversation and industry as a whole. Smaller companies still must rely on what’s available on the open market. And, as RJ clearly illustrates, “exclusive” is hardly ever just so.

Independent streak

There are independent movement makers championing new options for watch companies that rely on off-the-shelf calibers. Soprod is a holdover from when ETA was still the supplier of off-the-shelf movements. Like Sellita, Soprod was a partner company involved with manufacturing. Over the years, it has developed its own movements available for third parties, expanding the playing field even further. Serica uses the Soprod Newton in its 5303 dive watch. The Newton comes closer to ETA and Sellita in specs (no surprise), with a 44-hour power reserve and an admirable accuracy of +/-4 seconds per day.

Openmovement promotes itself as the first open-source watch movement. All of the movement’s 3D design files are available online for the community to use and work with as they see fit. One might consider it the antithesis of tightfisted copyrighted design typical of any industry. The “OM20”, which isn’t yet available, is only a three-hander with no date, with a 50-hour power reserve. I haven’t heard about any Openmovements making their way into watches yet, but I’m curious to see how this experiment in watchmaking and sociology plays out.

Miyota (part of Citizen Watch Group) and Seiko Instruments are hardly independent, but they are a large part of independent watchmaking with the movements that they provide to other brands. Their business models are good examples of trickle-down availability, as the calibers they make available to the market are already present in their own catalogs. As far as innovation goes, none of the workhorse calibers leaving Seiko or Miyota are cutting edge, but some, like Miyota’s 9039 and Seiko’s NE15, are respectable workhorses.

Blurred lines for a happy medium?

It would appear that those with the resources to develop new and improved workhorse movements are luxury watch companies intent on keeping the results of their hard work for themselves. That’s all fine and good. But it limits the rate at which development and diversification as a whole can take place across the industry. Many smaller players are left out of the game, dependent on the much slower developments coming out of the caliber manufacturers available to them. Worse yet, watch owners interested in new, exclusive workhorses are limited to the single brand offering the technologies or design they’re interested in. As increased specs in power reserve and anti-magnetism become more the norm, the ETA 2824-2 and Sellita SW200-1 will become dinosaurs. That may not be a problem, considering watch collecting as a genre is almost Jurassic in the modern day.

But that’s not the reality we’re seeing. Yema, a relatively small independent, has its own “in-house” workhorse movement, the YEMA3000. Other independents are releasing watches to the market with their own workhorses. As the Swatch Group and Rolex hold ever-fast to their intellectual property, the rest of the industry is responding with resiliency, keeping pace or better with the big boys. This has much to do with the immense collaboration that is occurring behind the scenes to drive development across the industry. The truth is that collaboration is everywhere. As RJ points out in his piece on in-house movements, hardly anyone is actually doing everything “in-house”. And aside from some questionable marketing, the buyer is the one benefiting.

Not so exclusive

Tudor’s MT5612 mentioned earlier appears as variations in Norqain watches (as the NN20/2) and Breitlings (as the B20). Oris partnered with an elusive outside party to develop its industry-shaking Calibre 400. Everywhere you turn, the industry is a woven rug of partnerships. This bodes well for the future of workhorses and watch enthusiasts alike. New calibers will continue to enter the market with increased specs, continuously driven by the arms race. Hopefully, we’ll see some “trickle-down” and become available as off-the-shelf movements for small independents. No matter what becomes available, I think it will be a long time before we see the end of the ETA 2824-2 and Sellita SW200-1.

The future

Watch enthusiasts get to have their cake and eat it too. Many can and will remain blind to all of the collaboration happening behind the scenes and shop the brands and their “in-house” watches with the stories and prestige that appeal to them. They’ll net some excellent watches in the process. Never mind the fact that those watches would not have been possible without behind-the-scenes partnerships. And with increased options available to the consumer, no one brand will be able to artificially inflate pricing beyond what the market will bear. On a completely different note, what will happen with Seiko and its shift upmarket? I guess we’ll find out.

What workhorse movements do you like and why? How do you envision future standards of the industry? Let us know in the comments below.

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Seiko 6R35 And Soprod: Workhorse Movements In Flux

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Jack says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 11:21

NH35 is 4R35, not 6R35.

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 23:06
  
  Oop, true. Thank you. The prefix is NE, and I’m not seeing a 6R35 equivalent available yet.
  
  Reply
Joaquin says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 11:36

What about ronda mecano R150?

Reply
MB
MarkB says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 12:05

I value consistent accuracy over length of reserve, so the 2824/SW200 beats the 6R35 all day. A Seiko movement you haven’t mentioned is the 6L35, which finds its way into some Preage products. It’s a 4Hz movement with approx. 40 hours of reserve and is slimmer and more consistently accurate than the 6R35.

A new, possibly game-changing entry is the La Joux=Perret G100. It’s a 4Hz movement with 60hr reserve and adjusted to within chronometer standards. Early adapters include Zelos, in their Spearfish and anOrdain. I’m looking forward to seeing more releases with this movement.

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1. ER
  ERR19_16 says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 15:35
  
  68 hours!
  
  Reply
2. RL
  Randy L says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 15:41
  
  It’s also the source for the movement Ming uses. And Soprod is used in very high-end watches, such as those from GoS.
  
  Reply
3. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 18:26
  
  The 6L35 seems to be a much nicer movement than any 6R. Unfortunately, it’s yet another one that Seiko is keeping close to the chest. We need Seiko to give us more of the good stuff it’s keeping so limited.
  
  The LJP G100 is an interesting one. In fact, there’s a whole conversation to be had regarding Citizen (which owns LJP) and La Joux Perret’s steps into developing and proving new ebauches. From what I’ve seen in pictures, and read, the G100 is incredibly similar to a Miyota 9015. Citizen owns Miyota as well. Now Citizen can manufacture essentially a Swiss-made 9015. It’s another instance of collaboration/ownership muddying of the waters that is making the current landscape so interesting.
  
  Reply
  1. Thomas says:
    
    Jun 04, 2022 at 18:37
    
    Apparently, the 4L/6L architecture is the basis for Soprod’s A10 movements. Another instance of behind-the-scenes partnership. There may be some clause in that agreement that limits Seiko’s ability to use 6L for themselves. That’s just speculation on my part.
    
    Reply
  2. Harvey128 says:
    
    Feb 26, 2023 at 20:11
    
    Tom, I’m waiting for a new generation of cost-effective, MEMS-generated chronometers. Boomers are dying-off, I don’t see millennials, genX’s, spending their cash for mechanical, unverified accuracy.
    
    Reply
Warky says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 13:02

The automatic time and date watch movement is realistically at a state of perfection – and has been there for a very long time. None of us really need the additional magnetic resistance or power reserve over what a top grade 2824 or it’s clones provide.

Accuracy? That’s mostly down to regulation. My most accurate watch was a Panerai with an ETA ebauche movement – and I have and have had many watches with “superior” movements. I currently have an anOrdain regulated by them with a hand wound Sellita that is so much more accurate than my Apollo 8 it is embarrassing.

We certainly don’t need the additional service cost.

All of this is simply the creation of an industry that wants us to spend more money and is succeeding. Tinkering to create longer power reserves etc will most likely have a negative impact somewhere. Perhaps a thicker or larger movement resulting in a less svelte case. Perhaps just less reliable. Usually just a lot more expensive.

Now don’t get me wrong – I am a sucker for it. That’s why there is only 1 watch in my collection that doesn’t have an “in house” movement. But my point is that ETA, Sellita etc is the backbone of the industry at a certain price point which in reality is the “sweet spot” for bang for your buck and I don’t think that is ever going to change.

Seikos approach I think is bonkers BTW.

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 18:32
  
  Right? How strong of specs do we actually need? If it’s a watch worn every day, a 40-hour power reserve is fine. That said… I’m a sucker for these new developments as well.
  
  I will counter your case about something being sacrificed somewhere with these increases in specs with one example: Oris’ Calibre 400. Now, who knows what real-world robustness will actually be; it’s too young a movement still. However, the 10-year service interval and warranty are real. That says something to me about what Oris believes about this movement. Couple that with a 5-day power reserve, anti-magnetism, and chronometer-grade accuracy at under $5k, and I’m left scratching my head as to what the catch is. 2824 is a solid movement, but it’s a design from a different era of technology and materials science. We may actually be getting something new and good from these new movements without sacrificing some integral element of quality. Only time (and our watchmakers) will tell.
  
  Reply
  1. Warky says:
    
    Jun 04, 2022 at 22:59
    
    I don’t read too much into the warranty thing. None of these watches are subjected to any kind of real abuse like they were back in the day when they were actually tools. They are much more likely to be pampered.
    
    Manufacturers can quite safely give long warranties knowing that the watch is very unlikely to cause any issues.
    
    I had a Tag with an ETA movement (whatever a “Calibre 5” is/was) in it that was my daily wear for about 15 years. Never serviced and never gave me a moments trouble.
    
    If there is the odd issue the cost of repair/replacement will be by far outweighed by the marketing value in a longer service interval and warranty.
    
    Reply
2. Ray says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 19:58
  
  Are you saying your eta is a better time keeper than all Rolex models ? I thought it was against the law for anyone to say that ?
  
  Reply
  1. Warky says:
    
    Jun 04, 2022 at 22:13
    
    I’ve posted before what my personal experience of accuracy is:
    COSC ETA fettled by Panerai, then Rolex/Czapek, then METAS Omega/Patek then everything else.
    
    As the article states, accuracy is one measure. The Panerai was uber accurate but had a crap power reserve and wouldn’t have the shock resistance etc of the others. Also the accuracy fell off a cliff if I didn’t wind it daily. So taken as a whole it was nowhere near the quality of what is in my modern Rolexes.
    
    The movements in the Czapek and Patek for example made the 8806 look like a piece of crude machined junk under a loupe. The 1869 is absolutely beautiful to look at but it’s accuracy is the worst I have.
    
    The Panerai ETA was just behind a closed case back but I am guessing it was no looker either?
    
    It’s no surprise that the best movement in any of my watches is in my Czapek. In terms of accuracy (after a wee visit back to Le Locle), architecture and finishing as an overall package it beats everything else hands down (including the Patek).
    
    Reply
jh
James H says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 13:35

What about the 6L and 2892? Anyway. I’ve a bone to pick with this increasingly common notion that Rolex et al are too expensive to be tools. They are simply expensive tools! And ‘expensive’ is subjective. As a Porsche or Ducati can still hustle on track, so a Rolex can and should take the incidental wear of its intended purpose. Personally, I work my Omegas and Rolexes very hard as a scientific diver, forester and farmer. They shrug it off. Their utility and dependability is their luxury (as compared to an overpriced 2824 and clones with its wobbly reverser gear and antiquated architecture, a hit or miss Kenissi, an inaccurate 6R…). I cannot get my head around people avoiding ‘dress’ watches for fear of damage only to buy a Submariner and never get it wet: “oh, it’s not a ‘tool watch’ anymore!” WTF is it then, a paperweight?! The irony is that most Westerners live hitherto unmatched lives of ease and luxury. Wearing cashmere loungewear and working on computers, we avoid the highs of horology lest the frappuccino spills!

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 18:07
  
  I want to know more about what you do. Farmer, forester, and diver? Seems like the life for me.
  
  My point about Rolex departing the realm of tool watch is only regarding the market pressure that has elevated Rolex beyond where it would stand naturally if a little less hyped and coveted. Rolex has become a currency in and of itself beyond any aspect of being a watch. It’s like putting a gold alternator in a vehicle. Sure, one could use a gold alternator as the equipment it’s built to be, but it’s worth so much more for its inherent gold-ness that it would be economically irresponsible to do so and risk damaging its value.
  
  That said, Rolex makes excellent tool watches, and I wish they weren’t so inflated that they could be easily worn as such, instead of wrist nest eggs. One day the bubble will burst.
  
  Reply
Verdigris says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 14:52

NB: the Sellita SW200-1 is not the Sellita SW200. The current caliber is the SW200-1. If you actually own the SW200 and the teeth of the ratchet wheel break you need to replace the axis and wheel of the ratchet wheel driving wheel and the axis of the reduction wheel too.

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 18:13
  
  Duly noted. The article has been adjusted. Thank you.
  
  Reply
KD
Kim007 says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 15:31

Great article! Seems a workhorse movement is all about providing proven reliability, good-enough accuracy (not a criticism), inexpensive servicing, and at a price the super majority can afford. Or as the iconic Timex slogan says: It takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

Reply
Dariusz says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 15:41

Kupiłem Citizen BN-6004-83e Myota 9051 wykończenie obróbka tytanu we własnym zakresie odchyłka dobowa 3 do 4 sekund to rewelacja odporność magnetyczna 16.000 zegarek za 1000 USD bije nie jednego Szwajcara o wiele więcej wartego pozdrawiam ?

Reply
Aurelius says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 16:48

I also missed a discussion about the ETA caliber 2892 (or SW300). For some reason, these calibers are significantly less employed that 2824-2 or SW200-1.

Why is that? Price?

Reply
1. Verdigris says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 20:32
  
  I think It’s a combination of being more expensive while being more prone to issues and having a far less efficent rotor. With the pro of being (only?) 1mm thinner (3.6mm v 4.6mm). In the talk at HSNY that Nomos had in March they were talking about it and about how the DUW 3001 (neomatik) isn’t just 1mm or so thinner than the DUW 5001 but It’s also just as reliable and with one of the best rotor efficiency in market.
  
  Reply
  1. Aurelius says:
    
    Jun 04, 2022 at 23:57
    
    Thank you very much for that insight, Verdigris.
    
    Reply
Fab says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 17:11

I have two Rado watches, both with the Powermatic 80. I think this is the Swatchgroup‘s new workhorse. You can find the Powermatic in affordable Tissot and Certina watches but also in something like the Captain Cook Ceramic a very expansive watch (at least for me). But I‘ve not seen the Powermatic in watches outside of the Swatchgroup.
Btw. I‘m very happy with my Powermatic 80 watches, the are very accurate when I wear them.

Reply
1. Steve Loader says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 18:45
  
  Hey Fab, I believe the Powermatic 80 is a 2824-2 with a modified barrel and escapement to get the 3hz rate and extended reserve.
  
  I suspect they’ll use this as the Swatch group workhorse and sunset the 2824-2, so that competitors don’t have direct equivalents.
  
  Reply
Verdigris says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 19:11

The SII NH35 is the Seiko 4R35, not the 6R35.

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 04, 2022 at 23:09
  
  Thank you! Adjusted. NE is SII’s prefix for 6R
  
  Reply
MH
Desmodromic says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 19:13

I have owned three different 6Rs and not one of them, after two years, ran within specs, very generous +20, -15 specs. Barely acceptable specs for the late 20th Century. Not acceptable for the 21 Century. Especially for watches more than $1,000.00 USD.

Reply
watchguy says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 19:20

This article talks about copyrights, but copyrights do not protect anything functional. Patents protect functional designs. People without legal backgrounds often feel free to use copyright, patent and trademark interchangeably, because otherwise they would have to take the time to check Wikipedia, but the differences matter. Unlike copyrights, which can last over 100 years, and trademarks, which can theoretically go on in perpetuity like a QP, patents “only” last 20 years.

The patent(s) on the silicon balance spring are expiring/have recently expired, which will have an VERY significant impact on the accuracy and anti-magnetism that mechanical watches with “workhorse” movements can achieve. Until now only Swatch Group, Rolex and Patek (with one set of patents) and Ulysse Nardin (with another set of patents) have been able to make silicon balance springs.

We may reach a weird point where it costs more to validate that a movement meets COSC, METAS, etc., standards than it does to make the movement, although hopefully that can be solved with testing automation.

Tissot has obtained COSC certification for some of its silicon (silicium) balance spring watches, but my personal theory is that all of the silicium Tissots can easily meet COSC standards, but the testing would make them significantly more expensive.

Reply
1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 05, 2022 at 21:02
  
  My mistake. “Patent” is what I meant. And that’s an interesting bit of information. We’ll see how the market changes as the technology becomes more available.
  
  Reply
Anthony Van Cleave says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 19:31

Hello. Great article. I have 6 Lorier watches. Five with the 9 series Miyota that cost 500$ each, and one with a Soprod that was 800$. I consider those movements ‘workhorse’ movements and I am completely satisfied with them. These movements were part of my choice in purchasing these Loriers. Reliability, serviceability, accuracy and excellent value. I don’t buy more expensive watches. In the case of Lorier, the combination of excellent and original styles with these movements…is where my money goes.

Reply
brooklyn_boy says:

Jun 04, 2022 at 21:37

I would define workhorse differently. Any calibre that’s durable enough to handle daily wear is a workhorse. Some are more sophisticated, and therefore more expensive, than others.
I would argue that the Patek 315/324 are workhorses too. The sumptuously finished VC 1142 is just as much a workhorse as the industrially finished Omega 321. The psychology of the consumer, i.e. his hesitation to potentially damage an expensive watch, is independent of the durability and reliability of the calibre.

On another note, Seiko need to improve their game if they want to charge these prices. Back in the days (6-7 years ago) when you could get a 6R15 watch for $300, it didn’t matter that it wasn’t as accurate as the ETAs. But at close to $2k, it’s hard to pick one over the Swiss.

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heirspring says:

Jun 05, 2022 at 00:43

I can’t wait for the day the 2824 and all its clones are no longer placed in new watches. An abysmal power reserve coupled with extreme fragility in its hand-winding mechanism hardly makes for reliability or convenience if you have more than one watch. Glad to see options from Japan and elsewhere.

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PB
KrazyKommando says:

Jun 05, 2022 at 02:23

Couldn’t help but notice you didn’t mention any of the Richemont brands.
Is that because most of them are so confusingly named and falsely marketed as in-house that its almost impossible to tell whats what? Richemont is so good at this that even the most astute watch enthusiast is often at a complete loss as to what movement they are getting in their watch.

The reality is that most of them are either Richemont group movements shared by many brands, or ETA clones with a modification or two and sold as “in-house”.

(Disclaimer: yes of course there are exceptions, and im not saying the movements are bad in any way. JLC and AL&S typically have their own movements, but IWC, Panerai & Cartier are the worst offenders)

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1. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 05, 2022 at 21:03
  
  I did say “Just about all of the big flagship luxury watch houses have in-house/proprietary equivalents of their own workhorse movements.” Panerai’s in there somewhere. 😉
  
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WC
DamagedAim says:

Jun 05, 2022 at 05:49

The histories of the 6R35 and 2824 are pretty interesting. The latter is essentially a development from the Eterna 12824 released in 1975, with lineage traceable back to at least the 1429U, a movement released all the way back in 1955. The 6R35 is a derivative of the Seiko 7005, a workhorse movement developed in the 60s to fill out the lower-end price bracket below the Seiko 6100-6148 family.

Neither ETA nor Seiko has designed the current iterations of these movements from scratch. Given how long they’ve remained unchanged, I’m personally not confident we’ll be seeing any substantial updates to them. The Eterna movement used to be cutting edge; now as a workhorse movement, it’s seen the same stagnation as the Seiko for the past decades, with only slight updates every now and then as the market slowly becomes more competitive. Most watch enthusiasts want to see newer, and better iterations of these movements (just look at what Seiko did with the 6105 when it made the 6148!), but the reality is that as long as the lower-end price bracket exists, it’s unlikely these movements will see much change. IMO, so long as the value of watches is defined by clever marketing rather than precision and reliability, we won’t see the same rush to deliver new innovations to the market across all price brackets like in the 50s and 60s. The only option for better movement tech will be to go upmarket.

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1. Aurelius says:
  
  Jun 05, 2022 at 11:37
  
  I’ve been wearing an Oris Aquis Upcycle every day now for about a month. First and only diver’s watch I own. I put in on in the morning and take it off when I go to bed. It’s running at about +3 seconds per day. Every Sunday, I hack the second’s hand, wait for the correct time and push the crown back in.
  
  It’s powered by a Sellita SW200-1, as I guess most people will know. Grade is Special/Elabore, but with a Incabloc shock protection (upgrade?). The red rotor has the ETA-style in its form, so that makes me think Oris have a bunch of these from the ETA days.
  
  Anyways, the way I’m using the watch, I don’t really need a longer power reserve. Better protection against magnetism would be nice, but, like many watch owners, it has become second nature to guard it, to the best of my ability, against known and obvious magnetic fields.
  
  Now to the point: Obviously, this movement works well. It is reliable and I’m happy with it. Still, with the focus nowadays on power-reserve and anti-magnetism, I wonder why Sellita doesn’t make some improvements to the SW200-1? Shouldn’t it be possible to increase the power-reserve without lowering the beat rate? I’m no watch maker, but how hard would that be? Longer mainspring, change the barrel, perhaps, look at the gear train, balance wheel and hairspring? And then add some silicium?
  
  What am I missing?
  
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2. Thomas says:
  
  Jun 05, 2022 at 21:12
  
  Seiko has quietly sold off a few excellent caliber designs to the Swiss over the years. It seems that the 6R lineage is good enough for most of its market. I hope that as Seiko moves upmarket, it hesitates to part with future caliber designs that might elevate the quality. Otherwise, I think you’re right: the customer basis will move upmarket past Seiko to get what it wants.
  
  I think Seiko is undergoing an identity crisis of sorts. People have long said: “I would never buy a Seiko that costs more than $1000”. Well, the market is proving that many people will actually spend that, and much more, for Seiko as a brand. Seiko is beginning to prove to the market (and itself) that it isn’t only a budget option to Swiss watchmaking. But it’s time for the actual quality to catch up with market perception if Seiko wants to compete with the Swiss on their pricing playing field.
  
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James says:

Jun 05, 2022 at 11:28

FWIW, all of my Seiko’s with 4R’s in them have been far more accurate than mine with the 6R15’s in them.

I don’t see why they attract the higher premium. Sure the newer 6R35’s have the higher power reserves, but the movement is basically the the same as the 6R15’s yeah?

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MJTUK says:

Jun 05, 2022 at 20:20

I have owned and continue to own a number of Seiko watches (non quartz) both vintage and new,and I’m always impressed by the robustness and accuracy of their movements,much better than watches 5 times or more expensive.

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DS
Dan Shlomo says:

Jun 07, 2022 at 18:34

I think you are absolutely right 6R far from being at the level of the Swiss ETA /Selita, I have Seiko with 6R15 movement – 25sec a day Vs +-10 sec a day in the Swiss movement. if you buy from recpected and very well know brands you can even experience – 4 to +6 sec a day.

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RH
gingonut says:

Jun 09, 2022 at 04:39

Love the lens on workhorse movements — for me it is the assurance of parts availability if anything.

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Finophile says:

Jun 10, 2022 at 10:44

So, you choose to leave the actual workhorse 4R out so you can go on watchWanking.

Right

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S says:

Jun 13, 2022 at 00:53

U mean 6L. There is no Seiko watch with 8L mvmt that costs less then almost 4k and honestly there is no comparison between 8L and higher grade eta. 8L is a raw GS mvmt, is more exclusive, superior in every way. To close it, what the eta does better then the 6r is that its better adjusted, the acurracy is generally better.

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TK
tomscat says:

Sep 17, 2022 at 06:33

I have a Seiko SPB153 and a SPB155 both less than 12 months old and they both have 6R35 movements . Both run -5 to- 7 sec if worn 12-15 hours a day .I rest them at night on their backs and they will gain between + 5 to +8 sec so that the next day they are similar with some minor variations .I found the SPB 155 more consistent but saying that it is the newer watch and so far it has been very consistent as far as speed and date change accuracy .The SPB 153 has shown signs of speed change after some hand winding which may be a lubrication issue that I may attend to if needed with a service and regulation .Considering the price paid and the build quality I am more than happy with these watches .I like quartz accuracy but prefer the sweep movement and all of the variations associated with mechanical . Next purchase Seiko GS and that would see me done !

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1. Harvey128 says:
  
  Feb 26, 2023 at 20:20
  
  I’m getting near 70 y/o… my collection includes “those before mentioned watches”, some Rolexes, Omega’s, Citizens, etc… a smattering of all. My top dog is my 2016 Reverso Tribute, 1,000 hr tested… I called JLC and was shocked when they told me that, unregulated, <17 sec/d is “acceptable. I bought a Citizen Pro-tough, Ecodrive, leave it under a lamp, it’s all up to God!
  
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Harvey Ito says:

Feb 26, 2023 at 20:02

Innovations like Omega’s Spirate System, are moving mechanical watch accuracy standards close to the “grail” of 0/day. But, IMHO, industrial production of a chronometer-certified movement remains elusive to manufacture a watch that retails for <$3,000. Uncertified, unregulated robust movements like Seiko’s 8L35, command premiums (+$1,200 above its “workhorse” sister). I don’t forsee major disruptions w/in 5 years. I’m 70 y/o, hoping for a revolutionary movement (like 1984).

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Harvey128 says:

Mar 24, 2023 at 14:10

Seiko must exceed ETA/Sellita & now (Kennissi) ebauche performances. How will they do this? They have options; (a) added performance enhancements to 6R system (b) 8L (c) new movement. They must do it soon, competitors have made significant adjustments in their movements.

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